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Good to Great Webinar Series – Jonathan Cuff – d’Overbroeck’s

December 18, 2019 by Lee Stanley

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Good to Great Jonathan Cuffs
d'Overbroecks logo

“It’s, it’s about getting your best players in place. It’s about giving those best players the opportunity to, to actually do what they’re good at.” – Jonathan Cuff 

 

Jonathan always knew he was going to be a Teacher, from the off following in his fathers footsteps. Listen to his path from NQT to Headship, where he shares insights and advice to all levels of Education. Feel Jonathan’s enthusiasm for the new Discovery Plus initiative in d’Overbroecks and how the school help and support Mental Health issues.

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Anchor image Jonathan Cuff
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QUESTION(S) OF THE DAY: What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

Scroll below for show notes, transcript and links…

 

SHOW NOTES:

[00:33] Jonathan’s route into teaching.

[01:38] Jonathan’s NQT Learns.

[02:27] Progression into Middle Leadership

[03:24] Jonathan’s Path to Headship.

[06:10] Advice for NQT’s.

[07:11] d’Overbroeck’s New Discovery Plus Initiative.

[09:09] The Future of Education.

[11:38] Supporting Mental Health in d’Overbroeck’s.

[13:54] d’Overbroecks Growth and Progression.

[14:51] Building a Successful Team.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

 

Lee Stanley 0:06
Hello, and welcome to Hadfield Education’s good to great webinar series where I interview the head teachers within the UK education sector. And today I’m joined by Jonathan Cuff, who is the head teacher of d’Overbroeck school in Oxford. Hello, Jonathan, how are you?

Jonathan Cuff 0:24
Yeah, fine. Thanks, Lee. Thanks for having me.

Lee Stanley 0:26
No problem. No problem. Thank you for being here. And so Jonathan, and tell me how did you get into teaching?

Jonathan Cuff 0:33
Or it was kind of always destined to be really my, my father was head of a of an independent prep school. And so I grew up living living on site and had all the wonders of the games fields and everything like that my disposal, and yeah, I was there from 7 to 18. And it was kind of what I was ever going to do. I think so yeah, I was the I was destined for it Really?

Lee Stanley 0:55
And what was your path into teaching?

Jonathan Cuff 0:58
I finished school. I did it I did a gap year working working at a school kind of doing all the dots body jobs and lugging a peek flipping around and things like that. And and from there I went to Brunel the old Borough road teacher training position to do four years there and then straight into school so I haven’t you know, some some head teachers in this day and age have gone through various kind of sizes of different work but I was I was I was always going to do education and, and really followed the the old traditional path straight into it.

Lee Stanley 1:29
So being an NQT as it’s now deemed and what what were your what were your initial learns, within your first few years of teaching?

Jonathan Cuff 1:38
Think about I mean, I was very fortunate. I had a I had a great PE mentor at the times very experienced a teacher lady there who kind of showed me the ropes and really, you know, I came out a young buck from University and I felt I knew exactly how to do everything straight away and she and she really taught me taught me quite a lot about about Teaching and, and different ways of, of teaching to a different kind of different audience of students. So there isn’t just one way there’s plenty of ways to get your to get your message across and, and allow those students to learn. So yeah, she was she was very influential, it really taught me that there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Right.

Lee Stanley 2:18
Excellent. And in terms of your, your progression into middle leadership, how did that pan out?

Jonathan Cuff 2:27
Well, I mean, I went from when I when I first got a job in my first school, I was actually in residential boarding accommodation, I was kind of an assistant house master shooter type role anyway. And from that, I kind of had a lot of pastoral care anyway, and kind of the PE games thing, I think traditionally sits quite quite nicely with that. And I then went on to be a house master house, two different schools. And so I always have my eye on that kind of Deputy Head postural type role and I guess through the experiences gained over kind of 12 years of doing house mastering at two schools, I applied having having my eye on what I always what I wanted to do. And yes, I got into into senior senior leadership as a director, pastoral.

Lee Stanley 3:14
Fantastic. And in terms of your, your path, because you’re obviously quite quite a new head teacher, how’s that? How’s that worked for you?

Jonathan Cuff 3:24
It’s good. I mean, I had about four years of senior leadership experience of Deputy head pastoral. In one school, I then moved to the school I’m currently adding in Oxford as a senior deputy, but also kind of overlooking the pastoral care. And then And then from there, the opportunity came around to be to take on the Principal role, and I kind of stepped in to do it that way. So I’d say it’s not unusual in this day and age to have kind of a senior deputy step up to be to be Principal but I didn’t really go through the application process that is still the norm.

Lee Stanley 4:04
Was that always in your in your plan? Did you always plan to be a Head teacher?

Jonathan Cuff 4:10
I always Yeah, probably the honest answer is probably in the back of my mind, that was something that I thought I’d be reasonably good at. But I’d always been taught from from an early point in my career that you know, you just focus on what you’re doing, and you don’t look that far, you know, my aim is always been focused on short term achievable goals. And and I’ve always you’re going to miss what’s directly in front of you and while you’re busy looking at the horizon, so yeah, it’s kind of happened. I think, I think within the independent sector, it’s important to have a some sort of plan know your way through if that’s where you want to go. But yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of worked out quite, it’s kind of worked out quite well. So I’m delighted to be here.

Lee Stanley 4:58
And in terms of guidance and and sort of mentor who’s been the biggest sort of influence a mentor within your in your teaching.

Jonathan Cuff 5:08
And it’s a difficult one I’m I would really put one person’s name down next to it because I’ve I’ve had my teaching roles, I’ve had roles within within the games programmes at school have had enough had obviously senior leadership roles. And there’s been I probably keep people within those different different spheres of work that have had a had a great influence on me, the lady I mentioned about the head, the head of PE initial school, I had a very good deputy head of pastoral and I turned to first being a house Master, who was an experienced man and he kind of guided me through that as a as a young house master. And when I moved to my first deck, he is the head who appointed me, appointed me again the second time, and they were very influential as well. So yeah, kind of different people at key points. Really

Lee Stanley 5:59
Excellent. Thanks. And then what advice would you give to any NQT’s or people that are thinking of turning, starting a teaching career?

Jonathan Cuff 6:10
NQT I thought I think, you know, they’re my, my main piece of advice would be their own lots of great teachers out there. And, and from my own experience, you know, coming out and knew everything out in the university, that actually there are so many different ways to teach and really not let anybody tell you how how to teach and how your personality should come across in a lesson. It’s got to be you. But to, you know, to go and observe great teachers in your school, I think I think your observation is, is well known, but it’s still such an undervalued commodity. And we have, we have these great examples happening every day in our schools. And for young teachers to actually go and look at a variety of lessons probably taught totally not related to their own academic subjects, I think is a brilliant way to see how different people are trying to access your minds in different ways.

Lee Stanley 7:04
Sure. Okay dnd in terms of within school, and what current initiatives you have running,

Jonathan Cuff 7:11
we have a we have a great new, a great new programme called discovery plus here, d’Overbroecks, which it really kind of tries to expand what we do in terms of branching out outside of the curriculum. It’s delivered within our activity programme, students sign up to it, they’re amazingly amazing. He keeps new this year. And it looks at current affairs, a variety of world events, things that are really happening today and are relevant and, and actually things that they will probably be asked to interview. And it’s, it’s staggering that we’ve got, you know, we’ve got bright students, but you actually investigate real genuine current topics, and and you’re sometimes a little bit dumbstruck by the the amount they don’t know. And so, so they are going through this programme, they do it in six week block. And then eventually they, they, they come together and they present all their their findings, their information in a kind of almost, it’s like a it’s like a game it’s like a game show where they are presenting their different findings on different subjects. And the panel will judge how how much they’ve learned and what they’re what they’re doing. And yeah, we’re we’re really hopeful for in terms of increasing the breadth of knowledge of our of our students in a world which is very exam focused, and very results driven, actually, our belief is that it’s that broad understanding of the world and the bigger issues in the world combined with their subject knowledge, their specific for their exams, that will make them a genuine candidate for for the top universities. Sure.

Lee Stanley 8:47
And you touch on that, but where do you see the education sector moving towards and in that sort of, you know, three, five years huge emphasis on Like you say, most of rounded technic technology and different angles of, of education, where do you foresee it going?

Jonathan Cuff 9:09
And then obviously, there’s been a lot written about about kind of online learning with with various I will, I won’t name them but various schools are now launching kind of online platforms. I think that’s a really interesting development that will see I don’t think it will ever it will never really catch on it’s like to go overseas and studying an English school for instance. But I think it’s, it’s, it’s certainly got legs because of cost implications things like that for, for for students around the world to have access to the British curriculum. And I think, you know, obviously the one of the main challenges that that we as educators have got a minute ease with the massive explosion in mental health. And, you know, how we actually as schools deal with that and were aware our responsibilities like with that because, you know, we have a firm understanding and happy students are successful students and therefore it’s all in our interest to have them happy and healthy and and working hard and achieving. So I think that’s going to become an increasing challenge and how, how upscale Do we need asked our staff to be in the modern age to deal with a multitude of issues that students bring through the door and it’s obviously it’s a challenge it’s a challenge on on staff time. You do they teach 22 hours a week do they do they now need to teach 18 hours a week because because they now dealing with X amount of of issues is it right that they deal with those issues? It’s a really interesting, it’s a really interesting I think one that only is gonna is going to develop and grown to a point where we really need to make some decisions about it. Certainly,

Lee Stanley 10:47
A teachers work isn’t is never really done is it because the number of number of hats that they end up wearing, I’m really is a phenomenally challenging position. Given the not only sort of the diversity of what they’re expected to do, but also then the diversity of the learner as well. And it can be, it can be incredibly sort of rewarding from seeing, you know, little Johnny short pants progress through and, and do really, really well. But also it must be incredibly humbling when they face sort of a little bit of adversity and have to help a student and the pupil through certain, you know, period of adversity and difficulty as well. So, and in terms of school, is there anything particular that you’re doing within school where mental health is concerned?

Jonathan Cuff 11:38
I think we’re very, I think we’re very fortunate. We’re in a very fortunate position. We we I mean, a lot of schools say they, they have a unique kind of relationship with their, with their students. I think, you know, d’Overbroecks in these is one that is actually known for that. We have we work incredibly clever Proceed with our students. We weren’t at a particular programme called a director of studies programme where our director studies the teacher and if you want to call it on our get shot, recording it at school, but if you want to call it a tutor, but it’s more of a specialist tutor for a small, very small group of students, they don’t have tutor meetings at six form, and they meet individually, and they will deal with pretty much everything to do that students students life and they and they do develop very close relationships with their students. And I think, you know, the d’Overbroecks model is probably in my, in my opinion, why it’s such an exciting place to be is probably ahead of the curve in terms of in terms of education, and I think society, as a whole children as a whole students as a whole. They, they don’t really want to be educated like it’s 1970 with X amount of military roles and whatnot, you know, there is a sense of there’s a difference emphasis on what they think is acceptable and what not. And you know, we don’t have a, we don’t have a uniform. So I don’t know a girl walking into a sixth for physics lesson doesn’t walk in and the first conversation the physics teachers having to say you skirt is too short. Because actually, you know, we all know that that probably alienates that that girl for a period of time, when actually the emphasis for us is on collaborative relationships and learning. And so, you know, I think I think the whole the whole d’Overbroecks ethos for me is the reason why we are we’ve grown so rapidly and why we’re so successful in what is a very competitive market in in Oxford.

Lee Stanley 13:44
Sure. And what about you in terms of progression and what are you looking to to implement over the next the next couple of years?

Jonathan Cuff 13:54
Well, I mean, we are we are in a period of growth. We have been for the last Three years, let’s say. And it’s quite this quite kind of rapid growth. I think we were at 520 students probably three years ago. We are 670 now, and we’re going to continue to grow. So with that we’ve obviously our our biggest challenge is the infrastructure that sits sits below that, below that growth. And making sure that we are still able to do exactly what we see on the team, which is treat all those students as individuals know themselves, really, I guess the main the main schooling challenge, if you want to call it is, is supporting via infrastructure and being clever about how we do things, the growth and maintaining the uniqueness of the school even though it’s grown substantially.

Lee Stanley 14:46
And how would you do you build a successful team do you feel

Jonathan Cuff 14:51
and I To be honest, the the the most successful teams have the best players and and you can’t get away from that. So it’s about analysing the team that you got. But often we were dealt a set of cards and they’re the cards we have to we have to play with. But it really it’s the same as any is any good games team really, you’ve got to make those people within your team feel valued that they have, that they have a significant input and actually, probably they are one of the most valuable members of that team. And, you know, my my style is very much to give them the scope to to go and deliver what what they what they believe in. We are a very collaborative SLT I think we get on well, I’m going to say that but i think but I think we do. But yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s about generating that sense of common purpose. I’m unfortunate. I’ve come into a school where we do have some experience SLT, and they have grown up on that journey of d’Overbroecks and they love the school for what it is. So you know, anything that they they say is really not out of personal benefit or gain that they might get out and it is out of a love of the school and wanting to, to maintain and cherish the unique ethos that we have. So yeah, it’s, it’s about getting your, your, your best players in place. It’s about giving those best players the opportunity to, to actually do what they’re good at. You know, it’s no point us as as heads employing people and telling them what to do because, you know, we can we can for anyone to do that you employ people who are better, more capable than you. So they make you look good. And, and I think, you know, fortunately, I’ve kind of walked into a situation and we’ve got a great leadership team here. So yeah, it’s pretty good.

Lee Stanley 16:45
Excellent. And what about outside of work? What, what sorts of do you do to sort of get away from get away from work,

Jonathan Cuff 16:53
Erm I might get a golf when when, when when is better, and I’ve got time and I’m also a big Yeah, I’m a big I’m a big Welsh rugby fan so I can be I can also be fan of sitting on the couch and watching a little bit too much. A little bit too much rugby on the weekends. So yeah, that’s that’s me playing with playing golf, my son and watching rugby, I think.

Lee Stanley 17:15
Fantastic. And what’s the latest book that you’ve read?

Jonathan Cuff 17:19
Well, I’m actually I’m actually just onto the new Warren Gatland autobiography. So yeah, that’s that’s my that’s my latest kind of couple of day really, if I if I could say that. Not very educational, butbut very good.

Lee Stanley 17:30
Fantastic. And, and what’s your favourite work app?

Jonathan Cuff 17:35
is probably an app called Due. That helps you you plan and it kind of it pops up on your on your phone and tells you various things that you should be doing. It’s like a, it’s like a PA in the pocket. So yeah, it’s needed because it’s busy.

Lee Stanley 17:52
And what about your favourite sort of personal app outside of work?

Um, well, good question. of the A couple of my phone, probably the one I use most is, again, it’s going to be my rugby related. It’s probably a BBC Sports app that I that I regularly check check things on when I haven’t got time to actually sit down and watch it.

Excellent. And if you weren’t a teacher, and what career path would you have chose?

Jonathan Cuff 18:17
And it’s certainly be something to do with child student development. And I’m not 100% sure on on probably what that would look like. As I said, I always had my, my, my, my kind of career and what I wanted to do. In fact, me I wasn’t one of those people who, who ever thought about other other options really. I did. I did. I did tinker with wanting to work in a golf shop at once at one point, but that never really materialised but yeah, I think I think it would be something to do with young people anyway.

Lee Stanley 18:53
Excellent. Excellent. And in terms of that, within school, is there any any initiatives that you want to share, and that people need to know about.

Jonathan Cuff 19:05
Don’t oxidise it as I mentioned, the you know, we’re always looking to do new things. And the discovery plus that we’re doing this year is our is our is our big thing. And we’ve got we’ve got a huge uptake of that, you know, we’ve got a new original programme that’s running again this year, which, which hopefully, covers and is a forward thinking enrichment programme, which covers a lot of the things that probably the more traditional kind of, you know, the sex drugs, cigarette, you know, don’t smoke education is is kind of gone and we’re, we’re covering more relevant upstate things. But you know, really for us this year, it’s about consolidation is about it’s about a discovery plus programme. It’s about continuing to support the mental health of the students in the school to get to get the best out of them. We’ve got, you know, a fabulous suite of apps For those who come in and work at work at the school alongside to start helping both staff and, and students, we place a place. I like to think that place great emphasis on on the well being of staff and and students. And yeah, so you know, our end game is always to, to try and broaden the students academic opportunities. You know, we do that by, we have 35 available options anyway. So they’ve got a pretty broad, pretty broad selection of subjects that they can study, but it really is to give them every opportunity and, you know, one of the things I’m always proud about that we always kind of come across when people come for, for interview is they say that, you know, we must be one of the only schools with on our, on our principles and our guiding principles. One of them is laughter. And, and they always say, well, that’s, that’s so unique, and we’re like, well actually, you know, we generally engage with that idea that, that that we need to have that collaborative hacking relationship with with students. So, you know, in terms of new things, discovery plus but but it’s really more of the same for us at the moment. Okay, excellent.

Lee Stanley 21:07
And what’s the best way for people to get in contact with you?

Jonathan Cuff 21:12
Obviously via via the school about my, my, about my PA. They can they can find on Twitter at DBX principle. I’m not a I’m not a massive Tweeter, but I do occasionally dabble. So yeah, then they would be the best, the best part of the protocol by Twitter and school.

Lee Stanley 21:35
Excellent. What I’ll do, I’ll put the links to your Twitter and also to school and contact details and then enrol below. And I’ll probably pop up on the screen somewhere as well. And thank you ever so much for your time. It’s been really informative.

Jonathan Cuff 21:52
Yeah. Thanks, Lee its been absolutely great,

Lee Stanley 21:53
Brilliant. Thank you,

Jonathan Cuff 21:54
Cheers. Thanks a lot.

SELECTED LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE

Jonathan Cuff – LinkedIn
Jonathan’s  Twitter Account
d’Overbroeck’s website
d’Overbroeck’s Facebook Page 
Due App

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Filed Under: Webinar Tagged With: d'OverBroeck's, Good to Great, Headteacher, Jonathan Cuff, Leadership, webinar

Good to Great Education Leaders Series – Jeni Ling – Faulkner Brown Associates

April 18, 2019 by Lee Stanley

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Jeni Ling

I went in with very clear vision of what I wanted to achieve in the school, and getting the staff and the community on board with that vision was really, really important.

Jeni Ling is an experienced director, facilitator, and education coach with a wonderful history of developing senior leaders and Head Teachers in education. Experienced school evaluator and inspector Jeni is a skilled coach, Educational Consult and Learning Manager. Jeni has a vast array of experiences which have rounded her abilities to improve all she works with.

Listen to more of Jeni’s fantastic experience and how she helps and supports the current crop of  UK Head Teachers.

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Radio Button - Jeni Ling
  • Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts.
  • Stream by clicking here.
  • Download as an MP3 by right-clicking here and choosing ‘save as’.
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QUESTION(S) OF THE DAY: What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

Scroll below for show notes, transcript and links…

SHOW NOTES:

  • Jeni’s route into Education [00:40]
  • Jeni’s career path [02:26]
  • Becoming a head teacher? [06:13]
  • What advice would you give to senior leadership or aspiring headteachers [10:12]
  • Moving from Head to being a Consultant [11:17]
  • Jeni’s lightbulb moments  [14:23]
  • Recent consultancy  Initiatives [17:02]
  • What does makes a good senior leadership team [20:23]
  • Where is the Education sector heading [22:23]
  • Is teaching still a vocation [26:35]
  • Jeni’s next project [31:10]
  • Contacting Jeni [34:36]

Interview Transcript

Lee Stanley 0:05
Hello, and welcome to Hadfield Education good to great education webinar series, where I interview the UK, leading Head Teachers, and education consultants. And today I’m speaking with Jeni Ling, who is an education consultant based in the North East. Hi, Jenny. How are you?

Jeni Ling 0:28
Hi Lee I’m very well. Thank you. How are you?

Lee Stanley 0:30
Yeah, very good. Thank you. Very good. Thank you for joining me today. So Jenny, tell me, what took you into teaching in the first place?

Jeni Ling 0:40
Well, it wasn’t the traditional route. I didn’t get into teaching until my late well, late 20s. I was like 29, I think, before I went into teaching, I had a variety of roles after leaving University. And I worked for a charity called healthy aged. And I went around the country giving and assemblies and talks about old people, and then ran sponsored events. I did that for about three or four years. But then I realized actually was really I really wanted to be in schools. So I went and did a post grad teaching certificate, and got into teaching after that. So I was, you know, 30, by the time I got into it.

Lee Stanley 1:21
Fantastic.

And in terms of having a career before going into teaching. Do you think that benefited you?

Jeni Ling 1:30
Yes, because I knew it, what it was what I didn’t want. And I think I chose to go into teaching from having the experience of being in schools, rather than thinking about the role of a teacher.

So yes, I think it did benefit me. I think it can be very limiting if you go straight from school, into university into teaching, because you never actually leave that environment. So yes, I do. I think it was useful. I didn’t think so at the time. But hindsight is a great thing.

Lee Stanley 1:59
Sure, and in terms of your your career path, and what did you how did how did that transpire?

Jeni Ling 2:09
Frozen

Lee Stanley 2:11
Oh, sorry, how did that transpire?

Jeni Ling 2:24
Hi, I think you back?

Lee Stanley 2:26
Yes, I am back. Sorry. I’ll ask again. How did how did your career transpire? So you started obviously, as an NQT, or Well, probably didn’t even the term that.

Jeni Ling 2:40
Well it was a very shaky start, because of the time and the was the one more applicants than there were places. And it was it was a closed, it was a closed community really. And you could only apply for permanent jobs if you were already working for the authority. So they were all in house. So I couldn’t actually get in. So I did a number of short term contracts in various different schools. And then in my CV, I use that as a as an advantage because I’d experienced different schools, rather than actually I was an unstable person moving from school to school. So it took me

probably two to three years to actually get a permanent position. And what I did get a permanent position it was it was immediately a scale two which in those days, you had to scale ones and the scale two and I was last, in the door it girls games. And of course, I knew very little about girls games, I was pretty hopeless at it myself. But I tried to build team spirit.

You know, we weren’t gonna win anything. But we’d we’d enjoy the competitiveness. And I think a lot of it was about competing for that for the enjoyment of them to the winning Valiant losers, I think we were

it was a shaky start, because it took me a long time. And you know, when you’re, you’re applying for jobs, new applying for jobs, not getting them, you begin to doubt whether it’s the right path for you. And I

Lee Stanley 4:05
often have that conversation with

teachers who, that it’s almost as if they expect to, to get the first job that they applied to. And I think even now, it’s so competitive in particular, in certain areas, that it really does take sort of well crafted application real thought, a little bit of luck as well, to be able to land your next job. So

Jeni Ling 4:35
yeah, yeah.

Lee Stanley 4:36
And in terms of your your then progression through school, did you take

Jeni Ling 4:43
and while I was at the school, that particular school for four years, and then I, in those days, you you, it was difficult to be ambitious. And there was no career path as such, I was looked down on because that you’ve only been here a few years, you know, why are you going to deputy headships, but I thought, well, you know, give it a give it a try. So the first one I tried, I actually got,

which I was quite surprised at I was then I was there for sort of seven years as deputy in a small primary school, church school.

But I got very restless there. I used to swim fanatically, because I was I was frustrated because I felt I could, I could do more. And I was I wasn’t being held down because the head was very laid back and let me do more or less what I wanted. But I wanted to run a school.

And it was a bit of a joke within the authority that I must have had the most interviews of anybody. And I lost track around 29. And this is over quite a short period of time. So obviously, my application was was a good one. But my feedback was you talk too quickly. And the governing body thought they’d been pinned against the wall. My passion was kind of a little overwhelming. I have to dumb things down because the governing bodies were not recognizing what I was trying to do. But when I finally got a headship is the right school. And it was, it was an interesting challenge.

Lee Stanley 6:13
So tell me about taking the the main seat in school, how was that?

Jeni Ling 6:20
It was the most exhilarating, terrifying, challenging thing I’ve ever done. And the school had lost the debt had appointed a new deputy in the Easter. And then the new head left a very short notice halfway through the summer term.

Ofsted was due five weeks into the new term. And I was appointed at the very very end of the summer, I was allowed to be released from my deputy headship. We also had a major refurbishment happening at the same time. So when I went into the school and try to the offset inspector arrived for his pre visit this was before term started, I couldn’t find a door that I could open was the word I’ve never met so many doors in schools and I couldn’t find the keys. And that place you couldn’t go to because the floor was being varnished. And it was chaos. absolute chaos, physically chaos. But it was also I realized that the first staff meeting that the paperwork was very substandard.

And I just thought I had to make the decision, would I change it all? Or would I say yes, I know these are the issues and present it too often as it was. And I presented rather than trying to change everything overnight. I presented it as it was to the to the inspector and explained my plans. And it worked. I mean, those were in the days before you got all sorts of advice about doing things. And I felt very, I was very much on my own.

And then there was the there was a I hate the word roller coaster, ride, because everybody uses it nowadays. But it really was a hugely challenging school in a challenging pocket within an affluent area.

I had no deputy. Well, I, I did have a deputy. But he went on capability within a year. And that took some doing he was bullying staff, he was inept at his job. And here was me a new head teacher coming in. So that was that in itself was a challenge because I couldn’t bring others on board in terms of what I was doing. with him. But anyway.

And then I do

Lee Stanley 8:30
how did you overcome that first? Because it sounds like you say a huge task? Yeah. How did you overcome the real big chunks of of issue the real, the real main challenges? And how long did that take you?

Jeni Ling 8:51
Um, the main challenges were and that the deputy, the staff in some ways, because they’ve been used to having quite an easy life.

Lee Stanley 9:02
Yeah.

Jeni Ling 9:03
And being told what to do. And I think those were the two main challenges I think I want I think that the parents, although we’re challenging in themselves, were less of an issue for me to win over.

So I suppose tenacity and downright stubbornness. Because I knew what had to happen, and it was going to happen. I didn’t lose many staff on the way. Because gradually, most of them were able to come on board, I registered to do Investors in People quite early on. And they gave me a really good framework for enabling the staff to be more participants. And that really worked for me, and I am the guy who ran that was like a mentor, he mentored me a lot in terms of all the processes, because all the processes have to be redone. But it was a huge challenge, but I absolutely loved it. And that’s what suits me is the big, it’s problem solving. And I think that that’s the essence of what I do now, as well, is, you know, give give me a huge issue. And I’ll try and work my way around it or get strategies to overcome it.

Lee Stanley 10:12
And what advice would you give to to head teachers, currently, or even Assistant Deputy heads that are looking to move into to headship?

Jeni Ling 10:23
I think it’s about it’s about the power of your beliefs. And I think that, I went in with very clear vision of what I wanted to achieve in the school. And getting the staff and the community on board with that vision was really, really important. And I think sticking with that vision, then became, everything had to relate back to the vision. And if it related back to the vision than that, then it was OK. So you, I kind of set the path of integrity through the school, that everything related back to the vision. And I suppose my advice to anybody taking on that role was was, is to be crystal clear from the outset what your vision is, and bring others on. So it becomes their vision as well. There’s no point going in having a vision for school, and not actually having the whole school community behind that vision. And I think that’s the starting point, because everything else sort of fits underneath it.

Lee Stanley 11:17
And in terms of your head, your headship, how long we were head teacher for eight years. And then what happened to then move you on to the next path.

Jeni Ling 11:31
Well it’s an interesting story. And I was so passionate about my school, and my pupils, and my parents and the whole community that I didn’t really,

I wasn’t really aware of what was going on in the local authority, and how I become a pain in the neck really.

So at after a lengthy

district disagreement, we agreed to part our ways. I was pretty, I hadn’t taken into account that every time I was banging on the door saying Why haven’t I got Ed psych here? And why haven’t I got this? And why haven’t I got that, you know, I was going higher and higher up hit list.

So we parted ways we would we would do to move up to the northeast anyway. So you know, it was a good time to leave. And I left without any clear vision about where I wanted my career to go.

But I was very fortunate and getting a, a very late sort of temporary post with the local authority as an assessment advisory teacher. Having been asked what I knew about assessment for learning, I said very little, but I’m a fast learner. So and this was before the assessment for learning came in with the strategies. So I then have to start developing the training materials, and training people within assessment learning. So that was what I moved from sort of mainstream education into adult learning. But I didn’t really know about very much about it, then. So after that contract was 18 months, I think. And then I moved to another local authority and became change management consultant. And then I started getting trained in change management tool kits, and getting people really, really interactive training.

Lee Stanley 13:17
Yeah.

Jeni Ling 13:19
And that then I think, yeah, that went part time. I think that was part time.

Because I got another job, then working for NCSL, the National College and NCTL as it is now delivering new visions of program for early headship. And that was my tipping point. That was when I suddenly found my niche. You know, as a head, I was a little bit to thinking outside the box for a conservative authority. As an advisory teacher, I’m still following all the rules, but kind of not necessarily comfortable with them. And then when I started looking at adult learning, I learned more about any sort of learning than I had ever experienced throughout my career.

The I used to go to the college, and we were trained for a whole day to deliver a whole day. This was in the days of massive funding.

Lee Stanley 14:09
Yeah,

Jeni Ling 14:10
I just, it was really challenging. Because there was some of the best educational brains in the country running this. And it was just amazing. And so excited. And that’s moved me into what I’m doing now.

Lee Stanley 14:23
So what was one of your biggest takeaways from, say, an event where you just had you had your own light bulb moment?

Jeni Ling 14:34
That’s not on the list.

And I think my light bulb moment came when I realized that we’re all we all learn and act in different ways. So it was, I mean, my degree, my initial degree was psychology. So I’ve always been interested in how, what motivates people and how people do things. And then I did, yeah, I know, my, like, all my I did Kolbs learning style. It’s my favourite, favourite thing. And I did it myself prior to delivering it to the cohort. And I found that in terms of active learning, I’m, I’m sort of against the back wall. Whereas other people may be near the sort of middle, I was way out on a limb with two other people. And then we started talking about how we learned how we approach things. And we did it in a very similar way. And then we began to understand the sort of the pedagogy underpinning that. And for me, that was a huge light bulb. Because if you have an unusual learning style, then you’re always slightly out of the out of the norm. But if you understand what it is, and then you look at other people on the other side, and there’s my, my husband is on the other side, I can tell you for a start, but then you see what actually data and tables and processes and rules are fine. But that’s not my preferred learning style. So I think that the light bulb moment was about me, and about how I approach things and how I learned. And since then, I’ve used I’ve used it with a group of Indian state officials, who were not educationalists and they were, they were primarily

professors, and very learned people, and I put them through this practical cold, put it out on the floor, and have them all in there quadrants. And I had some very snooty senior lecturers actually senior professors, saying, Well, I can understand why I’m down here, but I can’t see why you are. So there was a lot of kind of bringing people on board to understand that everybody’s learning style is is right for them. And I use it in my programs now as well, because I think it really helps people understand why there are certain people that you would give data analysis to, and there are the people who need seen, you know, we really need to brainstorm something around this. So I think that was my light bulb.

Lee Stanley 17:02
So So Tell, tell me about the current initiatives and what you’re working on at the moment?

Jeni Ling 17:10
Yes, I was thinking about this, and thinking how to categorize it all. And I think that going back to what we were saying before, a lot of it’s about problem solving. So what I I’m freelance, and I do whatever really excites me, I’m of the age now that I am, I’m semi retired. So I cherry pick really interesting things, which, to me is just a gift. And so I work I work, I started in Cumbria working with some very challenging schools that were going through some really turbulent times, there was an issue with a with a principal who was bullying, and he was suspended, and everybody was scared of him coming back. And I worked with them a lot to get them able to accept this bloke back. And I worked with the governor, a lot of it was around change management and managing emotion and things I’m working with a, I usually work with it with schools that have got an issue that they want solving, it could be a personnel issue, it could be a structures and processes issue. So usually I go in and help a school that struggling. But at the moment, I’m working in my first outstanding school. And I’m working to make them progress further than outstanding.

And interestingly, the first thing I did was, I had not only met the principal, and I was in a 90 people in one room. And we were looking at developing vision. And I prepared all the slides. And you know, it’s telling them all about vision and how to do this and how to do that. And then the Saturday before I suddenly thought, why am I doing it this way, this is not the way I do it. So I flipped the whole thing. and sent him an email. So don’t worry about the slides, I’ve changed it all went in, and then got them engaged them working groups them working on their phones, looking for examples and vision statements with what resonates with you bringing them all together. And it was because it was a special school, you know, 70% of them were not teachers, they will support stuff.

Lee Stanley 19:17
Yeah.

Jeni Ling 19:18
And you could, there was some the one or two who simply wouldn’t engage. But most, most of them 98% of them were absolutely onto it. And I’ve just seen some documentation coming from the school and they’ve got the got the vision statement there. And they’ve taken the pertinent words out, and they just got three words along the bottom. So it was it, I stood there look at these 90 people thinking I must be bonkers. Because it’s quite a difficult group to manage. And it was they were all sort of spread out along along the ways, which makes it harder, you know, the ones that way they were that way? You know what I mean? And what else do I do? I deliver in

Lee Stanley 19:57
terms of the three words, what were the three words

Jeni Ling 20:01
inspire?

us about it was so it was something about it was it was something about the pupils, and the future of the parents bring them innovate, inspire? And?

Dont know cant remember.

Lee Stanley 20:19
Sorry,

I’m sorry, in terms of so your main role when you have those kinds of challenges? As predominantly, been

helping schools that are in a pickle and need structure support and help what what do you think makes a good senior leadership team within a school?

Jeni Ling 20:49
Eeerrmm, I think it I think it’s one that’s open and not, you know, it’s open to being part of the whole school, not just not just a top top heavy bit. So that the that the principal, the principal head teacher and the senior leaders, and the middle leaders and all the staff all part of one. And although the senior leaders role is more strategic than the middle leaders, nevertheless, you know, I deliver NPQL, and it’s really important that middle leaders are actually empowered within their own area in the school. So I would see a successful senior leadership team as being one that’s in the same way that I would see a successful principle is one that enables and empowers people in their teams to fulfill their potential and to take part in the direction schools going. And questioning, questioning is huge. asking the right questions, always and it if I was going back to my headship, I think one of the first things I do would be to have a workshop around questioning skills. Because I think that that’s where that there’s such a there’s such a reservoir of knowledge within school. If you don’t ask the right question to the right people, you don’t even notice there.

Lee Stanley 22:02
Yeah, I do tend to find the schools that have Well, if we if you call it a better harmony, there is a lot more collaboration, there is a lot more sharing and helpfulness

Jeni Ling 22:17
and conversations. Yes. Conversations is absolutely crucial. Yeah. Yeah.

Lee Stanley 22:23
I mean, where do you foresee, where do you foresee the education sector moving? Obviously, lots of schools have have become, you know, autonomous businesses. We have a acadamisation and less local authority, where do you see it going?

Jeni Ling 22:45
It’s a difficult one, because I’ve seen so many changes over my career that in some ways, what it’s, it’s almost like a spiral because you keep going back. And I think I think the autonomy that academies have is a double edged sword. There are some amazing academies doing amazing work without local authority interference, which is great. But there are there are some that become fiefdoms and little with some very powerful, very well paid people. And they run as a business. And although somebody going from being a teacher into head teacher, I could have done with some aspect of business training. Because you you teach within a classroom, and then in my days, you went straight into running a school. So I there is certainly a place for running schools in that way. But it’s not about profit, it’s about people. And so

do you think that’s become forgotten? Or do you think it’s held in less high regard?

I don’t think you can generalize. Because I think that in some places, yes, it definitely has been forgotten. And I think in other places, that the peoples and the students are at the center of everything. So I don’t think he can really generally is it. But I think that sometimes these academies become very big and very hard nosed, and can go into schools and impose their academy academisation on a school without actually going in and trying to build the school up from within,

which is a, you know, you could argue that actually going in and imposing from the top with a successful recipe is is better. But I think from a school and from a people point of view, it’s quite difficult for schools to take that on.

Sure and where do you see the academy structure moving?

I honestly don’t know. I think it’s one of those things that it seems to be getting bigger and bigger. But then successful things that get bigger and bigger, you got a different government coming in. And they changed their just moved the goalposts, they move the sports club. And, I mean, I worked at at the National College for eight years, it was a big commute from Newcastle to Nottingham, and I used to go down every Sunday night, come back Thursday. But for me, something like the national I mean, this is kind of diversity, really, but it is something I feel quite passionate about is there we have that we were world leaders in developing educational leadership within schools. And okay, you know, the came a time when it needed to be rolled out more into the community, nevertheless, to take away that amazing environment of innovation and educational thought, I think was is scandalous. So something is as successful as the National College, you changed the government. And they they sort of push it to one side. So the same thing could will happen with academies. And because unfortunately, education is linked to politics. And they’re making decisions for political reasons, not necessarily for the good of the students.

Lee Stanley 25:59
Yeah,

Jeni Ling 26:00
I’m not very political. But it does get it does kind of make me pretty angry,

Lee Stanley 26:04
what you say. And I remember when I first fell into education recruitment, and within my first two years, there was a reduction in the in the pay ladder from nine to six, then all of a sudden, there were upper pay thresholds. And under a Labour government, it was very, very public sector driven and focused on how can we make this more attractive.

Which actually brings me on quite nicely to, I’ve got a bee in my bonnet at the moment in regards to teaching being a vocation. I genuinely feel that my teachers throughout my education had their own feeling for wanting to give back and saw teaching as their vocation. Do you still think that’s the case where the student teachers, NQT’s are concerned nowadays?

Jeni Ling 27:07
I think if it’s, I think certainly in my day in when I was in schools more as part of the teams and the ones for whom it wasn’t a vacation, you could tell because they were the groaners in the moments, and they were the outs, you know, out the door at half, three, four o’clock. If if it isn’t a vocation, it is damned hard work. You know, it really is. And I think that if you don’t do it for this for the good of the students, then the motivation is it is it has gone. And I think that it’s such a hard job that if you haven’t got that motivation and that love of what you’re doing, then it’s then it’s it’s really hard.

Lee Stanley 27:46
Sure,

Jeni Ling 27:47
but I think one thing that that, you know, through doing, I’ve also done ambition, school leadership, and training from the leaders. And then, you know, these are specifically middle leaders in challenging schools, and twilights, you know, they do about three or four term. And these kids, I mean, in my children’s age, these young teachers are incredible. Because it’s changed so much over the past 30 years from being a possibly, I don’t know, in terms of respect, in terms of the job, when I first started teaching, it was relatively easy. It was pre national curriculum. So if it was sunny, you’d go out and play around us.

Lee Stanley 28:28
Yeah.

Jeni Ling 28:29
And it’s become more and more by prescription by files, you know, remember the 10 10 National Curriculum files, and it’s become more, become more more process driven. But by the same thing, there’s a lot of resources there. So you get, you know, the interactive whiteboards and all the things that you can use as resources makes that parties here, but in terms of accountability, and the hard nosed, you’ve got to get X number through your at level four in SATs or whatever. Or, you know, there are consequences. And I think accountability has made it really, really tough. And I think that certainly some of the areas in some of the schools in Newcastle, who are dealing with some really, really tough social issues, that those teachers need a model, because they continue to look for ways of transforming these people’s lives. And I come along and measure what have you tried this, and I will try that try, you know, they really are trying everything, they’re very creative, how to how they will be in another 20 or 30 years, I don’t know.

You know, teacher burnout is, is is, is a well documented, phenomenal.

Lee Stanley 29:47
Yeah,

Jeni Ling 29:48
and understandably. But they’re great. They, I love working with these teams of young teachers who want to learn that passionate about their own development, and their own learning, which is something that was missing mean, early in my career. And it’s, it’s, it’s such an exciting thing to be involved in,

Lee Stanley 30:04
definitely, I think I think teaching is, is probably one of the best jobs in the world, I do the ability to, to influence and engage the next generation is certainly, if you don’t get a buzz out of that, then there’s something wrong with you. And I’m a dad, and just doing it with my own kids. And, you know, their friends is just, it’s just brilliant. It’s just brilliant

Jeni Ling 30:28
if you can get a buzz out of it, but unfortunately, you can get into the situation. I remember when I was a deputy, it was always after lunch times, it was all the discipline issues that always came my way that interfered with what I was trying to do. And I think that if you’ve got any kind of school where behaviour is an issue, and every school has it in some way or another, but that can be such a negative pull on your emotional capacity, because it is the most rewarding job. And you get these light bulb moments, and there are some of my career that I will never forget. But equally, you get some moments where you just could bang your head up against a brick wall, because no matter what you try, it’s not working.

Lee Stanley 31:10
Sure. Sure. And what’s next for you in terms of roles and jobs that you’re doing at the moment.

Jeni Ling 31:20
And one of the things I’ve been involved in for a couple of years is inspections in Dubai.

So I go to Dubai for sort of blocks of time and we we inspect the schools out there the state schools for UAE and and I’m kind of expecting call at the minute. So I may be off there I may not be it’s it’s always very last minute, so you kind of have everything ready to fling into the suitcase. So I’ll be doing that as when that that comes up. And but in the meantime, I’ll you know, be doing much of what I’m doing at the moment is that, you know, it’s getting the reputation for being able to get into schools and manage these crises, or just going in and, you know, I mean, one school I’ve got up, bespoked a leadership program. So I’ve got the head in that.

And the SLT for one session every half term for a year. So you know, it’s bespoke to their needs there a special school.

I’m also starting with bespoking an NPQ for special needs. So we’re doing a pilot which starts in three weeks. So it’s the MPQSL and MPQML, but it’s with an SEND focus. So be looking at the data and how you can show impact, and how, how leadership and how everything you need in leadership programs is relevant to special schools. So I’m hoping that that then picks up and takes off and ready to start a second one in September.

Lee Stanley 32:50
Do you find that the special needs sector is under service in terms of the way in which say mainstream primary mainstream secondary is?

Jeni Ling 33:02
What do you mean by under service?

Lee Stanley 33:04
Well, for example, you normally for somebody going through a middle leader qualification? Is your product, your bespoke product, is that specific to the equivalent of what those are but specifically aimed at special needs?

Jeni Ling 33:23
Yeah.

Lee Stanley 33:24
I’m just surprised that there wouldn’t be more of that kind of qualification, because this is such a specific and specialist sector.

Jeni Ling 33:35
There are Don’t get me wrong, there are specialists qualifications. There are there are organizations that run specific SEND qualifications, but what we’re doing is enabling them to get a mainstream qualification and MPQSL or an MPQML. But with the SEND focus, so say they wanted to go back into mainstream, they would have that credibility.

Lee Stanley 34:00
Okay.

Jeni Ling 34:00
So it’s the credibility. But I mean, the greatest thing, of course, is showing impact and data. Because, you know, in some of these special one in a lot of special schools, you can’t use Fisher family trust, you can’t use pizza, you can’t use all these other data programs, because you’re, the assessment is so, so individualized.

Yeah.

So I think we’re looking to build a really good resource to enable people to show impact of their leadership within the specialist sector. That’s what that’s what we’re aiming for working on at the moment.

Excellent. Excellent. And what’s the the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Well, my email address is Jenny Ling 89 at gmail.com, which is J, E N I, L I N, G. 89

I’ll put the links up at the links below to

spell it because every else puts N N Y and I’m on Twitter as well.

What’s your hashtag,

@LingJenny.

Lee Stanley 35:06
Brilliant. So I’ll get those and I’ll put those on to the end of the of the webinar as well.

Jeni Ling 35:13
If anybody wants to contact me just to talk things through, that’s fine. And I do travel, you know, all over the world, as like getting on planes

Lee Stanley 35:24
Well thank you

Jeni Ling 35:25
Yeah, okay,

Lee Stanley 35:26
thank you. And thank you ever so much for your time. It’s been incredibly informative. And like say I’ll I’ll put the links and email, in the notes and everything below

Jeni Ling 35:38
Okay, well, thank you Lee, thanks for your time,

Lee Stanley 35:40
No problem. Thank you.

SELECTED LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE

Connect with Jeni Ling Linkedin 

Tweet Jeni on – Twitter Feed

Email Jeni – jeniling89@gmail.com

 

INTERESTING MENTIONS

Klobs Learning Styles

National College for Teaching and Leadership (NCTL) 

Program for International Student Assessment (PISA)

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