I went in with very clear vision of what I wanted to achieve in the school, and getting the staff and the community on board with that vision was really, really important.
Jeni Ling is an experienced director, facilitator, and education coach with a wonderful history of developing senior leaders and Head Teachers in education. Experienced school evaluator and inspector Jeni is a skilled coach, Educational Consult and Learning Manager. Jeni has a vast array of experiences which have rounded her abilities to improve all she works with.
Listen to more of Jeni’s fantastic experience and how she helps and supports the current crop of UK Head Teachers.
QUESTION(S) OF THE DAY: What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.
Scroll below for show notes, transcript and links…
- Jeni’s route into Education [00:40]
- Jeni’s career path [02:26]
- Becoming a head teacher? [06:13]
- What advice would you give to senior leadership or aspiring headteachers [10:12]
- Moving from Head to being a Consultant [11:17]
- Jeni’s lightbulb moments [14:23]
- Recent consultancy Initiatives [17:02]
- What does makes a good senior leadership team [20:23]
- Where is the Education sector heading [22:23]
- Is teaching still a vocation [26:35]
- Jeni’s next project [31:10]
- Contacting Jeni [34:36]
Lee Stanley 0:05
Hello, and welcome to Hadfield Education good to great education webinar series, where I interview the UK, leading Head Teachers, and education consultants. And today I’m speaking with Jeni Ling, who is an education consultant based in the North East. Hi, Jenny. How are you?
Jeni Ling 0:28
Hi Lee I’m very well. Thank you. How are you?
Lee Stanley 0:30
Yeah, very good. Thank you. Very good. Thank you for joining me today. So Jenny, tell me, what took you into teaching in the first place?
Jeni Ling 0:40
Well, it wasn’t the traditional route. I didn’t get into teaching until my late well, late 20s. I was like 29, I think, before I went into teaching, I had a variety of roles after leaving University. And I worked for a charity called healthy aged. And I went around the country giving and assemblies and talks about old people, and then ran sponsored events. I did that for about three or four years. But then I realized actually was really I really wanted to be in schools. So I went and did a post grad teaching certificate, and got into teaching after that. So I was, you know, 30, by the time I got into it.
Lee Stanley 1:21
And in terms of having a career before going into teaching. Do you think that benefited you?
Jeni Ling 1:30
Yes, because I knew it, what it was what I didn’t want. And I think I chose to go into teaching from having the experience of being in schools, rather than thinking about the role of a teacher.
So yes, I think it did benefit me. I think it can be very limiting if you go straight from school, into university into teaching, because you never actually leave that environment. So yes, I do. I think it was useful. I didn’t think so at the time. But hindsight is a great thing.
Lee Stanley 1:59
Sure, and in terms of your your career path, and what did you how did how did that transpire?
Jeni Ling 2:09
Lee Stanley 2:11
Oh, sorry, how did that transpire?
Jeni Ling 2:24
Hi, I think you back?
Lee Stanley 2:26
Yes, I am back. Sorry. I’ll ask again. How did how did your career transpire? So you started obviously, as an NQT, or Well, probably didn’t even the term that.
Jeni Ling 2:40
Well it was a very shaky start, because of the time and the was the one more applicants than there were places. And it was it was a closed, it was a closed community really. And you could only apply for permanent jobs if you were already working for the authority. So they were all in house. So I couldn’t actually get in. So I did a number of short term contracts in various different schools. And then in my CV, I use that as a as an advantage because I’d experienced different schools, rather than actually I was an unstable person moving from school to school. So it took me
probably two to three years to actually get a permanent position. And what I did get a permanent position it was it was immediately a scale two which in those days, you had to scale ones and the scale two and I was last, in the door it girls games. And of course, I knew very little about girls games, I was pretty hopeless at it myself. But I tried to build team spirit.
You know, we weren’t gonna win anything. But we’d we’d enjoy the competitiveness. And I think a lot of it was about competing for that for the enjoyment of them to the winning Valiant losers, I think we were
it was a shaky start, because it took me a long time. And you know, when you’re, you’re applying for jobs, new applying for jobs, not getting them, you begin to doubt whether it’s the right path for you. And I
Lee Stanley 4:05
often have that conversation with
teachers who, that it’s almost as if they expect to, to get the first job that they applied to. And I think even now, it’s so competitive in particular, in certain areas, that it really does take sort of well crafted application real thought, a little bit of luck as well, to be able to land your next job. So
Jeni Ling 4:35
Lee Stanley 4:36
And in terms of your your then progression through school, did you take
Jeni Ling 4:43
and while I was at the school, that particular school for four years, and then I, in those days, you you, it was difficult to be ambitious. And there was no career path as such, I was looked down on because that you’ve only been here a few years, you know, why are you going to deputy headships, but I thought, well, you know, give it a give it a try. So the first one I tried, I actually got,
which I was quite surprised at I was then I was there for sort of seven years as deputy in a small primary school, church school.
But I got very restless there. I used to swim fanatically, because I was I was frustrated because I felt I could, I could do more. And I was I wasn’t being held down because the head was very laid back and let me do more or less what I wanted. But I wanted to run a school.
And it was a bit of a joke within the authority that I must have had the most interviews of anybody. And I lost track around 29. And this is over quite a short period of time. So obviously, my application was was a good one. But my feedback was you talk too quickly. And the governing body thought they’d been pinned against the wall. My passion was kind of a little overwhelming. I have to dumb things down because the governing bodies were not recognizing what I was trying to do. But when I finally got a headship is the right school. And it was, it was an interesting challenge.
Lee Stanley 6:13
So tell me about taking the the main seat in school, how was that?
Jeni Ling 6:20
It was the most exhilarating, terrifying, challenging thing I’ve ever done. And the school had lost the debt had appointed a new deputy in the Easter. And then the new head left a very short notice halfway through the summer term.
Ofsted was due five weeks into the new term. And I was appointed at the very very end of the summer, I was allowed to be released from my deputy headship. We also had a major refurbishment happening at the same time. So when I went into the school and try to the offset inspector arrived for his pre visit this was before term started, I couldn’t find a door that I could open was the word I’ve never met so many doors in schools and I couldn’t find the keys. And that place you couldn’t go to because the floor was being varnished. And it was chaos. absolute chaos, physically chaos. But it was also I realized that the first staff meeting that the paperwork was very substandard.
And I just thought I had to make the decision, would I change it all? Or would I say yes, I know these are the issues and present it too often as it was. And I presented rather than trying to change everything overnight. I presented it as it was to the to the inspector and explained my plans. And it worked. I mean, those were in the days before you got all sorts of advice about doing things. And I felt very, I was very much on my own.
And then there was the there was a I hate the word roller coaster, ride, because everybody uses it nowadays. But it really was a hugely challenging school in a challenging pocket within an affluent area.
I had no deputy. Well, I, I did have a deputy. But he went on capability within a year. And that took some doing he was bullying staff, he was inept at his job. And here was me a new head teacher coming in. So that was that in itself was a challenge because I couldn’t bring others on board in terms of what I was doing. with him. But anyway.
And then I do
Lee Stanley 8:30
how did you overcome that first? Because it sounds like you say a huge task? Yeah. How did you overcome the real big chunks of of issue the real, the real main challenges? And how long did that take you?
Jeni Ling 8:51
Um, the main challenges were and that the deputy, the staff in some ways, because they’ve been used to having quite an easy life.
Lee Stanley 9:02
Jeni Ling 9:03
And being told what to do. And I think those were the two main challenges I think I want I think that the parents, although we’re challenging in themselves, were less of an issue for me to win over.
So I suppose tenacity and downright stubbornness. Because I knew what had to happen, and it was going to happen. I didn’t lose many staff on the way. Because gradually, most of them were able to come on board, I registered to do Investors in People quite early on. And they gave me a really good framework for enabling the staff to be more participants. And that really worked for me, and I am the guy who ran that was like a mentor, he mentored me a lot in terms of all the processes, because all the processes have to be redone. But it was a huge challenge, but I absolutely loved it. And that’s what suits me is the big, it’s problem solving. And I think that that’s the essence of what I do now, as well, is, you know, give give me a huge issue. And I’ll try and work my way around it or get strategies to overcome it.
Lee Stanley 10:12
And what advice would you give to to head teachers, currently, or even Assistant Deputy heads that are looking to move into to headship?
Jeni Ling 10:23
I think it’s about it’s about the power of your beliefs. And I think that, I went in with very clear vision of what I wanted to achieve in the school. And getting the staff and the community on board with that vision was really, really important. And I think sticking with that vision, then became, everything had to relate back to the vision. And if it related back to the vision than that, then it was OK. So you, I kind of set the path of integrity through the school, that everything related back to the vision. And I suppose my advice to anybody taking on that role was was, is to be crystal clear from the outset what your vision is, and bring others on. So it becomes their vision as well. There’s no point going in having a vision for school, and not actually having the whole school community behind that vision. And I think that’s the starting point, because everything else sort of fits underneath it.
Lee Stanley 11:17
And in terms of your head, your headship, how long we were head teacher for eight years. And then what happened to then move you on to the next path.
Jeni Ling 11:31
Well it’s an interesting story. And I was so passionate about my school, and my pupils, and my parents and the whole community that I didn’t really,
I wasn’t really aware of what was going on in the local authority, and how I become a pain in the neck really.
So at after a lengthy
district disagreement, we agreed to part our ways. I was pretty, I hadn’t taken into account that every time I was banging on the door saying Why haven’t I got Ed psych here? And why haven’t I got this? And why haven’t I got that, you know, I was going higher and higher up hit list.
So we parted ways we would we would do to move up to the northeast anyway. So you know, it was a good time to leave. And I left without any clear vision about where I wanted my career to go.
But I was very fortunate and getting a, a very late sort of temporary post with the local authority as an assessment advisory teacher. Having been asked what I knew about assessment for learning, I said very little, but I’m a fast learner. So and this was before the assessment for learning came in with the strategies. So I then have to start developing the training materials, and training people within assessment learning. So that was what I moved from sort of mainstream education into adult learning. But I didn’t really know about very much about it, then. So after that contract was 18 months, I think. And then I moved to another local authority and became change management consultant. And then I started getting trained in change management tool kits, and getting people really, really interactive training.
Lee Stanley 13:17
Jeni Ling 13:19
And that then I think, yeah, that went part time. I think that was part time.
Because I got another job, then working for NCSL, the National College and NCTL as it is now delivering new visions of program for early headship. And that was my tipping point. That was when I suddenly found my niche. You know, as a head, I was a little bit to thinking outside the box for a conservative authority. As an advisory teacher, I’m still following all the rules, but kind of not necessarily comfortable with them. And then when I started looking at adult learning, I learned more about any sort of learning than I had ever experienced throughout my career.
The I used to go to the college, and we were trained for a whole day to deliver a whole day. This was in the days of massive funding.
Lee Stanley 14:09
Jeni Ling 14:10
I just, it was really challenging. Because there was some of the best educational brains in the country running this. And it was just amazing. And so excited. And that’s moved me into what I’m doing now.
Lee Stanley 14:23
So what was one of your biggest takeaways from, say, an event where you just had you had your own light bulb moment?
Jeni Ling 14:34
That’s not on the list.
And I think my light bulb moment came when I realized that we’re all we all learn and act in different ways. So it was, I mean, my degree, my initial degree was psychology. So I’ve always been interested in how, what motivates people and how people do things. And then I did, yeah, I know, my, like, all my I did Kolbs learning style. It’s my favourite, favourite thing. And I did it myself prior to delivering it to the cohort. And I found that in terms of active learning, I’m, I’m sort of against the back wall. Whereas other people may be near the sort of middle, I was way out on a limb with two other people. And then we started talking about how we learned how we approach things. And we did it in a very similar way. And then we began to understand the sort of the pedagogy underpinning that. And for me, that was a huge light bulb. Because if you have an unusual learning style, then you’re always slightly out of the out of the norm. But if you understand what it is, and then you look at other people on the other side, and there’s my, my husband is on the other side, I can tell you for a start, but then you see what actually data and tables and processes and rules are fine. But that’s not my preferred learning style. So I think that the light bulb moment was about me, and about how I approach things and how I learned. And since then, I’ve used I’ve used it with a group of Indian state officials, who were not educationalists and they were, they were primarily
professors, and very learned people, and I put them through this practical cold, put it out on the floor, and have them all in there quadrants. And I had some very snooty senior lecturers actually senior professors, saying, Well, I can understand why I’m down here, but I can’t see why you are. So there was a lot of kind of bringing people on board to understand that everybody’s learning style is is right for them. And I use it in my programs now as well, because I think it really helps people understand why there are certain people that you would give data analysis to, and there are the people who need seen, you know, we really need to brainstorm something around this. So I think that was my light bulb.
Lee Stanley 17:02
So So Tell, tell me about the current initiatives and what you’re working on at the moment?
Jeni Ling 17:10
Yes, I was thinking about this, and thinking how to categorize it all. And I think that going back to what we were saying before, a lot of it’s about problem solving. So what I I’m freelance, and I do whatever really excites me, I’m of the age now that I am, I’m semi retired. So I cherry pick really interesting things, which, to me is just a gift. And so I work I work, I started in Cumbria working with some very challenging schools that were going through some really turbulent times, there was an issue with a with a principal who was bullying, and he was suspended, and everybody was scared of him coming back. And I worked with them a lot to get them able to accept this bloke back. And I worked with the governor, a lot of it was around change management and managing emotion and things I’m working with a, I usually work with it with schools that have got an issue that they want solving, it could be a personnel issue, it could be a structures and processes issue. So usually I go in and help a school that struggling. But at the moment, I’m working in my first outstanding school. And I’m working to make them progress further than outstanding.
And interestingly, the first thing I did was, I had not only met the principal, and I was in a 90 people in one room. And we were looking at developing vision. And I prepared all the slides. And you know, it’s telling them all about vision and how to do this and how to do that. And then the Saturday before I suddenly thought, why am I doing it this way, this is not the way I do it. So I flipped the whole thing. and sent him an email. So don’t worry about the slides, I’ve changed it all went in, and then got them engaged them working groups them working on their phones, looking for examples and vision statements with what resonates with you bringing them all together. And it was because it was a special school, you know, 70% of them were not teachers, they will support stuff.
Lee Stanley 19:17
Jeni Ling 19:18
And you could, there was some the one or two who simply wouldn’t engage. But most, most of them 98% of them were absolutely onto it. And I’ve just seen some documentation coming from the school and they’ve got the got the vision statement there. And they’ve taken the pertinent words out, and they just got three words along the bottom. So it was it, I stood there look at these 90 people thinking I must be bonkers. Because it’s quite a difficult group to manage. And it was they were all sort of spread out along along the ways, which makes it harder, you know, the ones that way they were that way? You know what I mean? And what else do I do? I deliver in
Lee Stanley 19:57
terms of the three words, what were the three words
Jeni Ling 20:01
us about it was so it was something about it was it was something about the pupils, and the future of the parents bring them innovate, inspire? And?
Dont know cant remember.
Lee Stanley 20:19
I’m sorry, in terms of so your main role when you have those kinds of challenges? As predominantly, been
helping schools that are in a pickle and need structure support and help what what do you think makes a good senior leadership team within a school?
Jeni Ling 20:49
Eeerrmm, I think it I think it’s one that’s open and not, you know, it’s open to being part of the whole school, not just not just a top top heavy bit. So that the that the principal, the principal head teacher and the senior leaders, and the middle leaders and all the staff all part of one. And although the senior leaders role is more strategic than the middle leaders, nevertheless, you know, I deliver NPQL, and it’s really important that middle leaders are actually empowered within their own area in the school. So I would see a successful senior leadership team as being one that’s in the same way that I would see a successful principle is one that enables and empowers people in their teams to fulfill their potential and to take part in the direction schools going. And questioning, questioning is huge. asking the right questions, always and it if I was going back to my headship, I think one of the first things I do would be to have a workshop around questioning skills. Because I think that that’s where that there’s such a there’s such a reservoir of knowledge within school. If you don’t ask the right question to the right people, you don’t even notice there.
Lee Stanley 22:02
Yeah, I do tend to find the schools that have Well, if we if you call it a better harmony, there is a lot more collaboration, there is a lot more sharing and helpfulness
Jeni Ling 22:17
and conversations. Yes. Conversations is absolutely crucial. Yeah. Yeah.
Lee Stanley 22:23
I mean, where do you foresee, where do you foresee the education sector moving? Obviously, lots of schools have have become, you know, autonomous businesses. We have a acadamisation and less local authority, where do you see it going?
Jeni Ling 22:45
It’s a difficult one, because I’ve seen so many changes over my career that in some ways, what it’s, it’s almost like a spiral because you keep going back. And I think I think the autonomy that academies have is a double edged sword. There are some amazing academies doing amazing work without local authority interference, which is great. But there are there are some that become fiefdoms and little with some very powerful, very well paid people. And they run as a business. And although somebody going from being a teacher into head teacher, I could have done with some aspect of business training. Because you you teach within a classroom, and then in my days, you went straight into running a school. So I there is certainly a place for running schools in that way. But it’s not about profit, it’s about people. And so
do you think that’s become forgotten? Or do you think it’s held in less high regard?
I don’t think you can generalize. Because I think that in some places, yes, it definitely has been forgotten. And I think in other places, that the peoples and the students are at the center of everything. So I don’t think he can really generally is it. But I think that sometimes these academies become very big and very hard nosed, and can go into schools and impose their academy academisation on a school without actually going in and trying to build the school up from within,
which is a, you know, you could argue that actually going in and imposing from the top with a successful recipe is is better. But I think from a school and from a people point of view, it’s quite difficult for schools to take that on.
Sure and where do you see the academy structure moving?
I honestly don’t know. I think it’s one of those things that it seems to be getting bigger and bigger. But then successful things that get bigger and bigger, you got a different government coming in. And they changed their just moved the goalposts, they move the sports club. And, I mean, I worked at at the National College for eight years, it was a big commute from Newcastle to Nottingham, and I used to go down every Sunday night, come back Thursday. But for me, something like the national I mean, this is kind of diversity, really, but it is something I feel quite passionate about is there we have that we were world leaders in developing educational leadership within schools. And okay, you know, the came a time when it needed to be rolled out more into the community, nevertheless, to take away that amazing environment of innovation and educational thought, I think was is scandalous. So something is as successful as the National College, you changed the government. And they they sort of push it to one side. So the same thing could will happen with academies. And because unfortunately, education is linked to politics. And they’re making decisions for political reasons, not necessarily for the good of the students.
Lee Stanley 25:59
Jeni Ling 26:00
I’m not very political. But it does get it does kind of make me pretty angry,
Lee Stanley 26:04
what you say. And I remember when I first fell into education recruitment, and within my first two years, there was a reduction in the in the pay ladder from nine to six, then all of a sudden, there were upper pay thresholds. And under a Labour government, it was very, very public sector driven and focused on how can we make this more attractive.
Which actually brings me on quite nicely to, I’ve got a bee in my bonnet at the moment in regards to teaching being a vocation. I genuinely feel that my teachers throughout my education had their own feeling for wanting to give back and saw teaching as their vocation. Do you still think that’s the case where the student teachers, NQT’s are concerned nowadays?
Jeni Ling 27:07
I think if it’s, I think certainly in my day in when I was in schools more as part of the teams and the ones for whom it wasn’t a vacation, you could tell because they were the groaners in the moments, and they were the outs, you know, out the door at half, three, four o’clock. If if it isn’t a vocation, it is damned hard work. You know, it really is. And I think that if you don’t do it for this for the good of the students, then the motivation is it is it has gone. And I think that it’s such a hard job that if you haven’t got that motivation and that love of what you’re doing, then it’s then it’s it’s really hard.
Lee Stanley 27:46
Jeni Ling 27:47
but I think one thing that that, you know, through doing, I’ve also done ambition, school leadership, and training from the leaders. And then, you know, these are specifically middle leaders in challenging schools, and twilights, you know, they do about three or four term. And these kids, I mean, in my children’s age, these young teachers are incredible. Because it’s changed so much over the past 30 years from being a possibly, I don’t know, in terms of respect, in terms of the job, when I first started teaching, it was relatively easy. It was pre national curriculum. So if it was sunny, you’d go out and play around us.
Lee Stanley 28:28
Jeni Ling 28:29
And it’s become more and more by prescription by files, you know, remember the 10 10 National Curriculum files, and it’s become more, become more more process driven. But by the same thing, there’s a lot of resources there. So you get, you know, the interactive whiteboards and all the things that you can use as resources makes that parties here, but in terms of accountability, and the hard nosed, you’ve got to get X number through your at level four in SATs or whatever. Or, you know, there are consequences. And I think accountability has made it really, really tough. And I think that certainly some of the areas in some of the schools in Newcastle, who are dealing with some really, really tough social issues, that those teachers need a model, because they continue to look for ways of transforming these people’s lives. And I come along and measure what have you tried this, and I will try that try, you know, they really are trying everything, they’re very creative, how to how they will be in another 20 or 30 years, I don’t know.
You know, teacher burnout is, is is, is a well documented, phenomenal.
Lee Stanley 29:47
Jeni Ling 29:48
and understandably. But they’re great. They, I love working with these teams of young teachers who want to learn that passionate about their own development, and their own learning, which is something that was missing mean, early in my career. And it’s, it’s, it’s such an exciting thing to be involved in,
Lee Stanley 30:04
definitely, I think I think teaching is, is probably one of the best jobs in the world, I do the ability to, to influence and engage the next generation is certainly, if you don’t get a buzz out of that, then there’s something wrong with you. And I’m a dad, and just doing it with my own kids. And, you know, their friends is just, it’s just brilliant. It’s just brilliant
Jeni Ling 30:28
if you can get a buzz out of it, but unfortunately, you can get into the situation. I remember when I was a deputy, it was always after lunch times, it was all the discipline issues that always came my way that interfered with what I was trying to do. And I think that if you’ve got any kind of school where behaviour is an issue, and every school has it in some way or another, but that can be such a negative pull on your emotional capacity, because it is the most rewarding job. And you get these light bulb moments, and there are some of my career that I will never forget. But equally, you get some moments where you just could bang your head up against a brick wall, because no matter what you try, it’s not working.
Lee Stanley 31:10
Sure. Sure. And what’s next for you in terms of roles and jobs that you’re doing at the moment.
Jeni Ling 31:20
And one of the things I’ve been involved in for a couple of years is inspections in Dubai.
So I go to Dubai for sort of blocks of time and we we inspect the schools out there the state schools for UAE and and I’m kind of expecting call at the minute. So I may be off there I may not be it’s it’s always very last minute, so you kind of have everything ready to fling into the suitcase. So I’ll be doing that as when that that comes up. And but in the meantime, I’ll you know, be doing much of what I’m doing at the moment is that, you know, it’s getting the reputation for being able to get into schools and manage these crises, or just going in and, you know, I mean, one school I’ve got up, bespoked a leadership program. So I’ve got the head in that.
And the SLT for one session every half term for a year. So you know, it’s bespoke to their needs there a special school.
I’m also starting with bespoking an NPQ for special needs. So we’re doing a pilot which starts in three weeks. So it’s the MPQSL and MPQML, but it’s with an SEND focus. So be looking at the data and how you can show impact, and how, how leadership and how everything you need in leadership programs is relevant to special schools. So I’m hoping that that then picks up and takes off and ready to start a second one in September.
Lee Stanley 32:50
Do you find that the special needs sector is under service in terms of the way in which say mainstream primary mainstream secondary is?
Jeni Ling 33:02
What do you mean by under service?
Lee Stanley 33:04
Well, for example, you normally for somebody going through a middle leader qualification? Is your product, your bespoke product, is that specific to the equivalent of what those are but specifically aimed at special needs?
Jeni Ling 33:23
Lee Stanley 33:24
I’m just surprised that there wouldn’t be more of that kind of qualification, because this is such a specific and specialist sector.
Jeni Ling 33:35
There are Don’t get me wrong, there are specialists qualifications. There are there are organizations that run specific SEND qualifications, but what we’re doing is enabling them to get a mainstream qualification and MPQSL or an MPQML. But with the SEND focus, so say they wanted to go back into mainstream, they would have that credibility.
Lee Stanley 34:00
Jeni Ling 34:00
So it’s the credibility. But I mean, the greatest thing, of course, is showing impact and data. Because, you know, in some of these special one in a lot of special schools, you can’t use Fisher family trust, you can’t use pizza, you can’t use all these other data programs, because you’re, the assessment is so, so individualized.
So I think we’re looking to build a really good resource to enable people to show impact of their leadership within the specialist sector. That’s what that’s what we’re aiming for working on at the moment.
Excellent. Excellent. And what’s the the best way for people to get in touch with you?
Well, my email address is Jenny Ling 89 at gmail.com, which is J, E N I, L I N, G. 89
I’ll put the links up at the links below to
spell it because every else puts N N Y and I’m on Twitter as well.
What’s your hashtag,
Lee Stanley 35:06
Brilliant. So I’ll get those and I’ll put those on to the end of the of the webinar as well.
Jeni Ling 35:13
If anybody wants to contact me just to talk things through, that’s fine. And I do travel, you know, all over the world, as like getting on planes
Lee Stanley 35:24
Well thank you
Jeni Ling 35:25
Lee Stanley 35:26
thank you. And thank you ever so much for your time. It’s been incredibly informative. And like say I’ll I’ll put the links and email, in the notes and everything below
Jeni Ling 35:38
Okay, well, thank you Lee, thanks for your time,
Lee Stanley 35:40
No problem. Thank you.
SELECTED LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE
Connect with Jeni Ling Linkedin
Tweet Jeni on – Twitter Feed
Email Jeni – firstname.lastname@example.org